• soli
    Posts: 95
    Hello, everyone! I was wondering if anyone knew whether it is acceptable (or even proper) to have 2 cantors cantor together for any part of the OF Mass or any other part of the liturgy? I wasn't sure if any Church document touched upon it. However, if they match one another well in terms of diction, vowel sound and tone, would it be acceptable? Or is it always considered an obstacle to the clarity of the text? Has there ever been a liturgical reason for have 2 cantors... I think I have seen it suggested in some chant: the first part for the "Cantors" and the second part for the schola/choir. Any enlightenment would be appreciated. Thank you very much! We are in the process of giving lessons to a couple of new (in-training) cantors, 13 years old.
  • ISTM that the best clarity is achieved when one voice sings; however, it would be sensible to start working with this person for songs in responsorial form. For example, we do Dean “Taste and See” with some frequency in my parish, and that would be a good one to have a cantor-in-training sing the refrain with the other cantor, while the more experienced one of the two does the verses.

    Something about having two responsorial psalm cantors seems off-kilter to me. Would we proclaim the Prophecy/Epistle/Gospel two-at-a-time?
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Well, I don't know about a liturgical reason, but as a baritone, singing in the tenor range for seven verses of the Communion chant is a bit of a stretch. Next time 'round, I'm alternating verses with a friend.
  • There is some precedent here. In a number of pre-XVI. century Uses, particularly that of Sarum (and others may cite other instances), the number of cantors (or, rulers of the choir) increased to as many as four depending on the rank or solemnity of the feast. When and where this continued after Trent I do not know. The idea, though, is that it would be a mark of festivity. I have observed this custom numerous times in Anglican AND Anglican Use celebrations. It's a nice, celebratory, thing to do.
  • I've experienced the spectre of duo cantors at St. Matthew's Cathedral, Washington, DC (and if you think exaggerated cantorial gestures from ONE cantor are bad, try them in stereo).
  • Ah, the dreaded "two-headed singing beast" at the pulpit for the responsorial psalm . . . a horror witnessed regularly at NPM events. Not just one hand being raised up in a "gesture of hospitality" when it's the congregation's turn, but two! One left, and one right, and carefully choreographed at that. (It's even funnier when they take turns).

    No, I think there's a unique difference between the use of multiple cantors in the OF when it's carefully done. What most folks see in the typical parish setting is just awful and panders to more of the narcissism of the cantors involved than anything else.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    You can do it nicely if their hands are tied to their sides to prevent superfluous gesturing.
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    I think it would look funny from the front! I am so happy to say I haven't seen anything with gestures from the front. That is interesting about the festivity background. It seems one would be the norm. I think that a person should not cantor until they are confident vocally by themselves anyways. There is no way that an inexperienced cantor could probably sing well and match an experienced cantor's qualities, because that takes even more skill to do that. Has anyone ever seen multiple cantors done well in OF settings, from the loft?
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Maybe can you have a seperate psalmist and a cantor. Are you thinking of a cantor who kind of cheering the congregation to sing the hymns? or intoning the chants? Do you have to use microphone?
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    "Hello, everyone! I was wondering if anyone knew whether it is acceptable (or even proper) to have 2 cantors cantor together for any part of the OF Mass or any other part of the liturgy? I wasn't sure if any Church document touched upon it."

    Much of the discussion here has been about multiple cantors at the responsorial psalm. I don't know anything about that, but if my memory serves me, the instructions to the Graduale Romanum 1974 seem to assume that, if the introit is intoned, it may be intoned by multiple cantors and then the choir will join in. And in the Gloria, the choir can alternate with the cantors. Ditto in the Kyrie and Agnus Dei.

    Of course, again from memory, since I don't have it in front of me, I also think it says, somewhat contradictorily, that ideally, the whole choir would begin together, instead of having cantors intone.

    I'm sure someone will correct me if my memory is incorrect.
  • I have a husband/wife psalmist couple. They are both excellent singers (he's pursuing grad degree in voice) and well trained in rendering the verses of the psalms properly and without affect. He (a tenor) sings the melodic tones (R&A) and she (an alto) harmonizes with the alto tone. Their synchronicity is perfect. They back away from the ambo mic on the responses after the initial introduction of the responsorial in unison. They are the only "cantors" I have "cultivated" to so perform the psalms in that manner. I know it works on many levels, both aesthetically and philosophically. And, BTW, they don't "animate" with raised arms.
  • I hardly call these 'singers' who wave their hands in the air (some even do little pirouettes) cantors, which are an ancient breed whose function and art are the preparation, intoning and leading of the chants of mass and office. These 'psalmists', who wouldn't know a psalm tone from from a strain of Stravinsky, let alone how to make music out of chant, are a totally new breed, a new invention.
  • Lord knows, Mr. Osborn, I hope the above wasn't targeted in my general direction. Whew.
  • He surely knows, Charles in CenCA, that it must not have been. I would assume that there was no need for it to have been. Whew.
  • The Responsorial Psalm in the Liturgy of the Word is a lesson. (See James McKinnon, The Advent Project, for convincing evidence.) Anciently its verses were sung by only one cantor, and GIRM directs that the be so rendered now.

    The use of more than one cantor as a festal adornment, to which Jackson referred, was a late medieval development. Still, in many of the late medieval uses, the gradual and alleluia verses were sung from a lectern. Although the style of the Gregorian graduals was no longer remotely akin to the style of a lesson, their verses were still rendered as though they were.

    While the verses of the antiphonal psalms used at the entrance and communion were originally sung by solo voices, the 1974 Graduale Romanum allows them to be sung by a cantor or cantors: "Antiphona a choro decantata, versus a cantore vel a cantoribus proferatur..." (p. 11)
    Although the 1974 Graduale is a private edition, the rubrics are quoted verbatim from the 1972 Ordo Cantus Missae, which is an official part of the Missale Romanum.

    The 1974 Graduale also prescribes the the verses of the tract be sung alternatim between two parts of the choir or between "cantors" and choir.
    The tract was originally a solo, however. Furthermore, in current circumstances having it sung by a soloist may advisable. Getting the whole choir to sing the elaborate verses of the tracts well is no easy feat.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    "Hello, everyone! I was wondering if anyone knew whether it is acceptable (or even proper) to have 2 cantors cantor together for any part of the OF Mass or any other part of the liturgy? I wasn't sure if any Church document touched upon it."

    I think the choir is allowed by Church documents to do pretty much any part of the Mass, and so your two singers could be considered a small choir.

    In the old Rite, the Liber Usualis specifically called for "2 cantors" on occasion.
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    Thank you, all! Yes, it makes sense for the psalm to be cantored by one person. I wonder if the 1974 Roman Missal has been superceded in any way by the new GIRM or what is coming just around the corner with the new Roman Missal. I wonder if it would be liturgically correct, for example to use 2 cantors alternating with the full schola and congregation on the Gloria, sung in an antiphonal style (i.e. at the double bar lines), or something similiar? I wouldn't want to initiate a practice that has no precedent liturgically, merely because it sounds "nice". The Church's ideal is our ideal, and Mother Church has a variety of wonderful possibilities... it's just to know what those are. Thank you for all your comments so far. Any other lights are most welcome!
  • Ancilla, out of curiosity and if you're willing to share, what other than the training of a couple of new, young singers prompted your original question? You seem to suggest above that some consideration was given towards initiating a practice.
    And does it seem to anyone else that all the commentary in this thread yet and still does not or cannot definitively answer Ancilla's question; perhaps because of the profound differences between the two primary forms of gradual and responsorial?
    Again, I kind of need someone to sort this out for me as if I were a four year old child. Early onset....
    But as I'm holding a workshop on this very subject Tuesday evening with my "leaders" I'd like, as Ancilla, to hear more.
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    Well, I'm not exactly sure why, but I think I have heard it on some gregorian chant CDs if I'm not mistaken, and also, I think the practice, if well done, is very beautiful - the alternation of a couple singers who match tone well vs. the larger group. It has a kind of beautiful anonymity to it, as well as the variety in the tone colour - I think (if well done) that the tone colour will be more pleasing to the ear and will have more nuance to it . I think it could sound nice intoning (some of) the Mass parts some of the time (I still think the idea of festival rank is interesting). Not that I think it should be exclusively one or the other... I am just interested in what the Church permits, and what has historically been done and why, and what is allowed now. Actually, at the first training session, one of the girls asked me if they could sing together, but I told them that for the sake of the clarity of the text it should be only one singer. However, another Sister and I chant the communion antiphon (with only one intoning) and we can match sound and diction (note length and dynamic too) quite well. In fact, it sounds almost like one voice, except it has a certain fullness to it. I think it is a great kind of sound for sacred music and wondered what place (if any) it had/had actually has.

    I will pray that your workshop goes very well, Charles in CenCA! Thank you for taking an interest in this topic!
    Sr. Bernadette
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    The Roman missal specifies tow cantors for the Litany of saints.
  • imagine this:

    New church, two cantors decide to team sing the Litany, side by side. New microphone turns on and off automatically when infrared senses person.

    Sensor unable to sense person when two people stand shoulder to shoulder.

    So, the tradition remains unbroken. No one sings over microphones in our church.

    There IS a benefit to advanced technology.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    Ha! pretty good.