Palm Sunday Questions
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    (1) If you sing the psalm verses with the Hosanna filio David antiphon, do you conclude with the Gloria Patri, as you would with an introit? I know you omit the Gloria Patri with Pueri Hebraorum (at least in the Novus Ordo, according to the 1974 Graduale Romanum).

    (2) When exactly do you sing the Hosanna filio David? I know you sing it "at the blessing of the palms," but what exactly does that mean? Do you sing it, then the priest blesses the palms, then the procession begins? Or do you sing it while the priest blesses the palms?

    (3) Am I right in assuming you sing the Pueri Hebraorum antiphons and verses while the procession, er, processes?

    (4) When do you sing the All Glory Laud and Honor? During the procession? Right after the procession enters the church?

    I've perused Graduale Romanum and it didn't really answer my question.

    Thanks for any help you can offer, and if there is some book I should be looking at instead of bugging the good people of this forum, please let me know.

    WJA
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    Hmmm... I imagine you are actually asking, "when SHOULD...?"
    I don't know, and I'm in a phase where I've stopped thinking about what I should be doing, rather than just what can I get away with before someone starts whining that they miss the Haas song they USED to do.

    But what we do is a simplified version of the Hosanna filio David, in English, with one or two verse, no Gloria Patri, as they are getting ready to do the "outside Gospel," and then sing AGL&H to ST THEODULPH as the procession makes its way inside and to the sanctuary.

    And please keep bugging people on this forum so that they will answer the question to which I need to know the answers, but which I don't even know enough to ask.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Bruce E. Ford
    Posts: 429
    According to the Roman Missal "Dominica in palmis de passione Domini," rubric 4, the antiphon "Hosanna filio David" (with optional psalm verses) is sung while the ministers proceed to the "minor church or other suitable place outside the church" where the palms are to be blessed. This antiphon functions as an "introit" for the Liturgy of the Palms "collecta." The rubrics say nothing about the Gloria Patri. It would seem, therefore, that the decision to use it or not is yours.

    "Pueri Hebraeorum, portantes," and "Pueri Hebraeorum, vestimenta" with their respective psalm verses, and the Hymn, "Gloria, laus, et honor... ("All glory, laud, and honor...") MAY be sung during the procession, or they may be replaced by "other suitable songs in honor of Christ the King." (Rubric 9)

    The responsory, "Ingrediente Domino" or "another suitable song" is supposed to be sung as the procession enters the church.

    The rubrics allow a great deal of latitude in the use (or replacement) of all these chants; and practical considerations must influence your decisions.

    My personal recommendation would be that you have the choir sing one or both of the "Pueri Hebraeorum" antiphons (with psalm verses) while the procession is outdoors, begin "All glory, laud, and honor" when the procession enters the church (so that the people can hear the organ), and then have the choir sing "Ingrediente Domino" as the ministers enter the presbyterium and cense the altar. (In this case the ministers should wait at the entrance to the presbyterium until "All glory, laud, and honor..." ends.)
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,369
    I cannot quote chapter & verse, nor a rubric off-hand, but Gloria Patri is not sung at all during Holy Week.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    A few years ago, we had a real Palm Sunday disaster. The chants outside were fine, I assume, since someone else was out there leading them. I stayed in the organ loft as always with a few choir members to start the "All Glory Laud and Honor" when the procession entered the church. Somewhere in all this, the visiting trumpet player got confused and went off into the wrong place in the hymn. The majority of the choir climbing the stairs entered the loft singing a different verse than the rest of us were singing. What's an organist to do? I put on the Sforzando and drowned everybody until I got them all back together. We learned from that and now do things a bit more simply. The pastor or another singer leads the chants outside. The outside choir group is told to not sing until they enter the loft and determine what verse we are on. Some may think it a bit cheesy, but we always do "The Holy City" either at offertory or as a recessional. It's the pastor's favorite and we could sing it every Sunday and he wouldn't care. Some years, the fire is started inside at the Easter Vigil because of weather. Remind me to tell you about the ushers setting the mulch in the flower beds on fire last year when they took the fire outside. We may not always do everything correctly, but we are fun to be around - if you like unpredictability.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,033
    The rubrics of the extraordinary form dictate that the "Gloria Patri" is omitted during the last two weeks of Lent ("Passiontide") Perhaps this is what you are thinking of, M. Jackson Osborn, since I have never seen it explicitly stated that this rule applied to the ordinary form.

    My own take would be to omit it, since I think it is good to defer to the old rubrics whenever possible.

    Sam Schmitt
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    I'm not sure; I don't have my 1974 Graduale Romanum here with me. I believe the prohibition of the Gloria Patri during Holy Week is stated in the Preface thereof.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    I couldn't find it in the preface, but in the pages for Holy Week, none of the introits have the mysterious letters "e u o u a e". Also, the processional psalms for Palm Sunday are marked with "Gloria Patri omittitur."
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    Thanks for the comments to my questions. It is interesting to note that in the 1961 GR (pp 167-169), it includes the Gloria Patri in the texts of the psalms that you sing with the Pueri Hebraeorum antiphons, but is silent as to Hosanna filio David (to precise, it does not list the text of the psalm you sing).

    In contrast, in the 1974 GR (don't have the page number hand), it specifies that you do *not* sing the Gloria Patri with the Pueri antiphons, but is silent as to the Hosanna filio David.

    Anyway, sounds like we're safe to omit the Gloria Patri on the Hosanna filio David, so I suppose we will. Thanks again for the very helpful answers to my questions. Our plan is: Hosanna filio David with the psalm verses when the congregation processes out of the church to the sidewalk in front of the church where the palms will be; the first Pueri antiphon without psalm verses after the blessing and during the distribution (we'll just repeat the antiphon until we're ready to process back into the church); and then when we enter the church, we'll hit the English hymn version of All Glory Laud and Honor. Ingrediente Domino will have to wait for next year.

    WJA
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    Just thinking out loud here. Basically the only proper Palm Sunday music I can get away with is the Hosanna to the Son of David (antiphon only, no verses) and All Glory Laud And Honor during the "procession" in the church. I happened to be paging through the St. Gregory hymnal and they have "ingrediente domino" listed as a recessional for Palm Sunday. Now I'm not all that familiar with the pre V2 services, but I do know that Palm Sunday was different than Passion Sunday and that now they are combined. So my question is, would ingrediente domino work as choral recessional on Palm/Passion Sunday in the ordinary form Mass? Certainly nothing directly prohibits it. I'm just wondering about the liturgical shift from a triumphal entrance to the sober passion, and then back again?--and yet the chant melody is so haunting, I'm thinking it could work as a sort of bookend to the Palm/Passion Mass. Any other thoughts?
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