School Mass explanation
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
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  • With all due respect, it's way too long, way too detailed.

    A few bullet points would work: the Church has repeatedly said, through many documents and the Pope's own writings what music at Holy Mass should be like and resemble. I'm trying to bring us, as much as I can, into conformity with that vision. The pastor supports this vision, which is informed by the teachings of the Church. Also, experience has found that more complicated music with complex rhythms and the like are harder for children to learn anyway, thus defeating their purpose.

    The end.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    I agree with PGA. All the specifics about Church teachings are unnecessary at this point. What matters is that the Church says X and you (and the priest) are trying to achieve X.

    It would also be helpful if, in the letter, you could give a couple of the specific complaints that run counter to your vision. As it stands, the other side of the conflict is too amorphous and anonymous. As an objective reader, I would wonder why you are so up in arms about the suggestion to improve the music; on the surface it sounds like a great idea, not a complaint. You haven't really established what it is that bothers you.
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
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  • I am having basicly the same problems with teachers complaining about the music at school masses (even parents), and have also used the bullet point method to explain things. Unfortunately, the counter argument is always "but church X down the street does Rise Up and Sing (or whatever else). Does that mean they're not Catholic?" My answer has been that I can only speak for our parish and that we choose to conform to the norms coming from the Vatican itself. Unfortunately, in my neck of the woods, that explanation is not even getting close to stopping the constant complaining.
  • You don't tell them how to teach their subjects, their comments to you and Father are worthless since they have no training or background in liturgical music. Let Father handle it, refer them directly to him.

    They don't tell him how to say Mass, and should not be permitted the idea that they can tell you what music to sing. Smile and send them to Father.

    Bullet points are an excellent idea, but only if Father is holding the gun.
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    "Bullet points are an excellent idea, but only if Father is holding the gun."

    ROFL!!! Thanks, Noel!
  • Aren't all Catholic school teachers defacto music experts? At least the pastor shares your vision as well as the vision of the Church. When I made my argument for teaching more chant to the school children, namely following the directives found in the Missal and other Church documents, my pastor told me that the pope is out of touch, and that chant would not be a major part of his parish's music program. The Life Teen rep is trickling down into the middle school, and I am even getting praise chorus requests for weddings.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I'm struck by the complaint that "the children aren't singing." When I was in Catholic School (ca. 20 years ago now), if we didn't sing, the music director didn't get in trouble. We did.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Gavin: That sounds more like it. Of course, we only hear one side, but it sounds like the principal doesn't like the music, and is looking for excuses to criticise more than anything.
  • Gavin--Yes, WE got in trouble and BIG trouble, after all it was MASS and we were expected to participate. Nowadays, teachers have to get stomach aches and headaches trying to make sure we don't "intimidate the children" and are called on the carpet for everything, including choirs failing to sing. It's suddenly become our responsibility to make sure we provide that which is "fun" for the children and not teach them a darn thing about what true liturgy is all about. Masses have become entertainment on Friday mornings, rather than a time for true worship. Parents attend the masses and complain, complain and complain when the music doesn't "lift them" and "brings the children down". I've heard it all, including "the children have a rough week. On Friday mornings they should be allowed to let their hair down and bang on claves and drums". Geez, as a music educator, as well as a choir director, I thought that's what classroom activity was all about, certainly not liturgy! Am I wrong?

    And far as this particular principal is concerned....obviously he/she will find anything in order to get what she wants. My principal blatantly complains at faculty meetings about the state of the music at children's masses, which, of course, only encourages other faculty to complain.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Is the pastor actually in charge of the school. If so, let him deal with the principal. Generally, a well-placed "shut up" from the pastor does wonders.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • There are a great many teachers in Catholic schools that are liberal progressives. Anything that smacks of traditional orthodox conservative sacred music and musicians are in their sites as a target no matter how well you are as a musician, they'll target you as a teacher too. I know, I've been there! I was once, long ago, the target of such other teachers and their character assassinations.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • At my job I play for school Masses and the teachers take turns "planning" the liturgy. I get the list of songs each week that I am to play, and they are such classics as "This Little Light of Mine," "Shine Jesus, Shine" and "Table of Plenty." I pick my battles and this isn't one that I've bothered to fight yet.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    And we wonder why kids grow up and stop going to Church.
  • I noticed that the language you quoted from the GIRM paras. 48, 74 and 87 regarding the options for the Entrance, Offertory and Communion antiphons, is from an outdated edition of the GIRM. The GIRM for the Third Edition of the Missale Romanum was translated into English and reissued in 2011. In the current translation, the word "song" never appears in those paragraphs in reference to the antiphons, only the word "chant". Jeffrey Tucker wrote a good summary of the new GIRM last year & it's posted on the Chant Cafe blog, that would be helpful to you I think -- in making the case for chant and against the substitution of hymns, based on the new language in the GIRM. So you should get yourself a copy of the current GIRM.

    You seem to have a good grasp of the documents and the mind of the Church. If the principal is willing and has the time to read a lengthier explanation, that's very commendable. But my experience has been that principals are heavily scheduled, and unless they are trained in music won't want to bother getting way down in the weeds so to speak, on the subject, as you have in your letter. A few salient points might be better, and in any case it's really the pastor's battle to fight. The pastor, or whoever writes the principal's performance evaluation and signs her paycheck-- and those are operative facts, maybe not as relevant as what the Church teaches, but relevant nonetheless.

    In our cluster there is a K-8 school and I have been invited to celebrate Mass there. There are issues there similar to what you describe. Probably next month I will be in the rotation as celebrant, and then we'll see how I deal with it (I am not the pastor)!
  • john m
    Posts: 136
    Typical liberalism. When I run up against this attitude, my answer is "Isn't the school a place to be challenged to LEARN? Since when are subjects in school supposed to be dumbed down for the students?" Schools exist for students to learn; to hone their minds; to grow their intellects. Stand your ground. Kindergarteners do not NEED to sing at Mass. Not singing will not affect their salvation. The Church, kinder and wiser than their teachers, does not require this of them. As for the older students, start teaching them some Latin chants. They will love it, and it will drive the liberal teachers crazy. It may get you fired. At least you will have gotten fired for doing the right thing.
    Thanked by 2Earl_Grey KARU27
  • "It may get you fired"............I wish I was in a position to be able to truly do what I feel is right....unfortunately, my bill collectors wouldn't accept the fact that my feelings on sacred music is the reason I no longer have a job.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • john m
    Posts: 136
    Understood. But you do have the high ground and the backing of the Church and the pastor, and that is a good position to be in. From the description it appears that their main objection is not so much what the students sing, but whether they sing. The songs they are suggesting are songs that they think the children will sing. Sacred music theory will be lost on them. Since you have the backing of the pastor, show them that the children can sing better stuff.
  • I think that the whole concept of the "school Mass" should be abolished. If the parish wishes to hold a daily Mass to which the school students attend, fine. But let it be a parish function, following the norms and customaries of a parish Mass rather than tailoring every little element to the kiddie-winkies.

    Mass is not an "assembly period" for the school where the students (usually because of the influence of the ultra-lefty teachers who have an axe to grind or an agenda to advance) assert their identity by dumbing down the liturgy with parades of soccer balls, globes, baseball bats and textbooks during the offertory or dramatic readings of the Gospel, or tinkering with the calendar because the kids won't understand who St. Januarius was or why we're fixated on "bloody body parts" (direct quote from an associate pastor I had to deal with in reference to Januarius, but also with the image of the Sacred Heart).

    It is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Period. So just stop with the tinkering and get on with preparing souls for eternal life, already.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    -Curatus_in_partibus, thank you for your response. One of the problems that I have in my church is that we use a publisher who has now started calling their "songs" Entrance Chant, Communion Chant but they are still using the same music they used last year when it was called Entrance Song or Communion Song. So they are trying to change what the church means by Chant.
  • It's a favorite progressive tactic to redefine and misuse words until they lose their original meaning and subliminally support some agenda.
    Thanked by 2donr Ben
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    That trick is not unique to progressives and liberals.
    Thanked by 3donr irishtenor kevinf
  • Amen David and God bless you. I've had those thoughts for many years now. In my parish, the school mass involves the children's choir, child cantors and child lectors. In many instances (today is a good example), the "lector" had not been rehearsed and stumbled over many, many words, making the reading almost painful to listen to. I am responsible for preparing "cantors" (not my choice), and struggle constantly with the kids because they are chosen by the teachers who have no idea between the difference of those who can and cannot sing the responses. Agh!
  • john m
    Posts: 136
    No question as to what publisher that would be. Not naming any names, mind you, but the first initial is "O", the second is "C" and the last is "P". All this publisher has to do to be seen as complying with liturgical law is to change its terminology to match the GIRM. Sacropop charts are now called "chants". Thus is liturgical law fulfilled.
  • I said progressive. One can be either liberal or conservative and use progressive means to advance an agenda.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • You may find something like this useful. I have attached a draft of a leaflet, music for the mass during the season of Lent.

    It has Gregorian Mass XVIII on the front, 4x Lenten Hymns in the middle, The Lenten Prose (Attende Domine) and the Marian Antiphon for Lent "Ave Regina Caelorum.

    One of my little projects has been to produce a series of leaflets for "Music for the Mass" for different liturgical seasons. I had also thought of providing other music such as the propers for the season, but this is about as simple and congregational as it gets.

    Perhaps what needs to happen is that the children learn the pieces of music at school BEFORE going to mass. It may be the case that children don't sing because no-body has taught them how to sing or what to sing. Don't expect them to pick it up on Sundays either.
    Thanked by 2donr E_A_Fulhorst
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,469
    You have got to make is MUCH simpler. They are not going to have the patience to read a long document like this. ONE page will be all they can deal with. You will defeat your purpose with a long document filled with developed logic and argument. They will not be able to get it. One page. (In my humble opinion). Make bullet points, that is how people think.
    Thanked by 1canadash